Gary Thomas: I just want to ask you Clare about Animate’s origins.

Clare Kitson: Well it was all quite straightforward really. I got to Channel 4 in 1989 and almost immediately I had a visit from David Curtis, who was Artists’ Film and Video Officer at the Arts Council, and the producer Keith Griffiths - who'd obviously planned the whole thing! They knew exactly what the result of this meeting was going to be! Keith had worked with Channel 4 a lot so he knew how everything worked.

They said, "Wouldn't it be a good idea if we pooled funding and expertise, especially from the Arts Council, and set this scheme up."

It was a very good time. We didn't realise at the time what a wonderful moment it was. BSkyB had started up and that was the beginning of the satellite channels and the more and more and more commercial channels and the less and less money for Channel 4.

But at that time we still had a lot of money and a lot of enthusiasm and very goodwill. And so it started up easily.

GT: But from a Channel 4 perspective, why were you interested?

Well, we had this remit from the government that said we had to commission work that was innovative in form and content. And over the years this remit got added to and added to, which slightly obscured the origins of the thing. And in fact, because of the way the remit got added to, so that there had to be a certain number of hours for this kind of programming, and hours of that kind of programming, and animation didn't actually get in there.

But the remit which we started off with was absolutely fantastic for all things animated, because animation fitted in so well with that terribly vague aim. And that was why we wanted to do everything that we could to foster innovation.

GT: How did Animate fit with the other animation commissioning that you were doing?

CK: We were commissioning a very, very wide range of things, and that was the whole idea, to make it as broad as possible. So there were half hour family specials. There were some directly commissioned animated shorts.

And there was another scheme that we set up at almost the same time - the Animator in Residence, then with the Museum of Moving Image at the National Film Theatre in London, for first time filmmakers.

We wanted to cover every area that we could. What we couldn't do, which was sad, was that when my predecessor, Paul Madden, when he first arrived, apparently the channel was including animation within Film 4, and they were very happy to co-produce or be a financial partner, with the aim of making two animated features a year.

And in fact Paul was able to put money into Svankmajer’s Alice and Jimmy Murakami’s When the Wind Blows. But that stopped, so feature films weren't covered, and series weren't covered very much until later times.

But Animate fitted in just great. It was harder job persuading scheduling then it was getting the money to make them.

GT: Ossie - a question I’ve wanted to ask you a long time is about how you made your graduation film, Clothes, in 1998, and it was a BAFTA nominated success, but it was then quite a few years until you made Film Noir and I wondered why that was?

Ossie Parker: Money. I fell in love with film and animation and the moving image at Middlesex University over 20 years ago. And when I left I left with a series of what were really sketchbook films - including Clothes. I was inspired to continue to learn through animation and mixing of live action, but I didn't continue to make my own short films. I wanted to learn with professional filmmakers about the techniques and the decisions they were happy to take to make entertaining films, whether they were commercials or whether they were non-action films. And I wanted to use that knowledge to make my own feature films. I felt I needed to leave college - where I'd already spent seven years - to then go out in the real world, learn from these others directors, cameramen, art directors, musicians, and then use that knowledge to do a different kind of short film.

That's why there was this big gap between Clothes and my other short films - that, and money.

GT: You made Film Noir on your own?

OP: Yes. A three minute animated mixed media film, made a year or two prior to my Animate film Yours Truly. It was an idea I was conceiving and shooting tests on while I was doing my commercial work. It was a similar process to Yours Truly, where I would use photographs or cut out line action and then reanimate them and frame that time in camera.

But as for working commercially - the industry is so dried up right now it's very difficult now to earn money. I’m now teaching part-time at Middlesex University.

It's a lovely bit of full circle.

GT: Chris - I mean when you came to make Dad’s Dead for Animate in 2004 you'd been working commercially, you'd had other commissions from Channel 4.

You have a very successful independent animation production company, Slinky Pictures. And you’ve continued to make your own films - I wondered how that works?

Chris Shepherd: Well it’s similar to Ossie - you would do commercial things and on the back of that you could explore things. And I think for me with each film I've made I've explored something - there's been something that's been bugging me.

In a way, for me I’d always though a lot of animation was beautiful but I never really saw my world on the screen. So I thought, well, why can't there be a council estate animation? I do sort of go from film to film with a burning desire.

I was really lucky with Dad's Dead, because I recorded the voice something like two or three years before I made the film. And I was so scared of it I stuck it in the cupboard and didn't look at it again. I'd done all this comedy and then suddenly this film is really dark - there are characters that are sociopaths and things.

And I remember people being really shocked when I screened it.

GT: But it also has jokes in it…

CS: Yes, it does, but people just didn't expect me to do this psychotic film. And that's the great thing with the Animate scheme - having the space to explore things that may not necessarily be embraced.

I think it's something that we've lost over time because I think television and film is so about the money and about selling something that the audience understands and selling something that's going to be commercial.

And that's what was magic about Animate is that you could do something in a different way, maybe challenge the audience, make the audience think. And I think that is something that we could all do with.

GT: Well... I was I was going to ask you both how brilliant Animate was for you but might have sounded a bit self-serving!

With the films both of you make, and I think most of the Animate commissions, is that while the films are all animation, even if some of them stretch the definition - and there's a delight and a darkness in using animation techniques that you bring to your films - but also it seems that you're both employing animation in the service of something else as well.

So Ossie is exploring film noir and popular culture and Chris is making social realist drama in Dad's Dead...

Do you think of yourselves as animators or filmmakers or artists? How does that square?

CS: I don't know! I have no idea of what I am or who I am, I don't have a clue! I just get more confused as I get older. And every time I've done a film, the next film I'll do - there will be thematic things in there that will be similar to the others, but they're always different, you know. Who I Am and What I Want is not like Dad's Dead. In terms of technique, I just think I'm a storyteller really. I think that's my main purpose.

I've just finished a new film and it's a live action film. And I think it's my attempt at trying to make Last of the Summer Wine, and it’s really gentle and stuff. I would love to make a film about love, that would be nice wouldn't it? A love story. Well anyway, I'll dream on it.

OP: I'd like to go back to Gary's question that he didn't really want to ask. Because I do think that Animate is a brilliant scheme. Because it allows you as a filmmaker to produce work that is a little bit more risky or more daring. And these are the words that kind of scare not just TV commissioners but also commercial clients. They want a dead cert, they want to know it's going to be successful.

And I think those things that are entertaining are important. We don't want to always be challenged, we want to sit down and watch something really crappy because it helps you to relax. But the problem is that the balance is out of kilter. We need challenging films that stimulate and inspire us as viewers and as filmmakers.

Animate allowed me not just to make the film that has gone on to be nominated and quite fortunate to win awards. But the most important thing it did for me was to allow me to grow, to really grow and experiment, and take a chance with what you can do with making films through animation. That is really important.

I do see it a lot actually in the universities - seeing students playing with stuff. And that's how I see myself, almost like a child playing and trying to learn my craft all over again after each film.

And it is so nice when you've done a film to throw it away and then start all over again and to try something new.

I do see students do this well and I see other filmmakers in bedrooms making this interesting stuff. But what they're missing is the support bridge where Animate would finance the work to be able to help them to execute these films at a much more professional level or to reach their vision in a much quicker way.

And it wasn't just money - the Animate people, Gary, Jacqui, Dick, would be around if you needed to bounce ideas off of them. Point you and to guide you in really interesting directions.

GT: I'm blushing! But one thing I think is that we always talk about Animate as being risk taking. But actually, through Animate’s open call, I always think that most of the risk taking has already been done in the preparation of and the thinking through and the preparing of those ideas to a stage where someone else can make a decision about something.

What about funding and business for you two...?

CS: I'm going to come out with uber-despair now. But I think it only takes five minutes to chop down a 100-year-old tree, that's what I think.

Everything is being cut, everything is being slashed, I mean it's slash and burn and everything. It's terrifying times, and I don't know what's going to be left at the end of the tunnel.

But you've just got to keep going and keep doing films and keep battling on because I think increasingly everything is becoming so commercial. I've written three feature films and that is such a commercial area, with rules about structure, your character arc, everything, which is great for the audience. But at the same time there's this experimentation thing and the way you instinctively make films, which is really the best way to make films.

And you can't afford to forget that, you know, that's totally critical. Because all these Animate films - quite often they've led the commercial world. I remember when I finished Dad's Dead and everybody was like, "Oh wow, yes, do an advert," or "do a pop promo," or "do another feature."

And there's the thing. For me it's like capitalism. It's like the markets mob - it's taking food out of the fridge and then never putting anything back. I feel like were going through this phase where everybody was just taking things on the quick and the instant and the fast. You need to invest in people and that's what was great with Animate.

GT: Clare… how does Animate sit in the broader context…?

CK: Well in any context Animate is completely brilliant. But I think that what Chris said in lovely graphic terms is very much what I feel. When Channel 4 was doing Animate and all the other stuff certain people would say to me things like "But why are you encouraging all these young filmmakers to make short films, because that will make them think they can earn a living on it and they can't. So actually it's very unfair what you're doing."

And I thought that's probably right. But on the other hand we had very good reasons for commissioning them. And it's only now that a lot of people are seeing problems - that creativity isn't actually quite what it was. And I think it is this investment in playing, that's where the creativity comes from and there isn't any such investment of that kind at the moment.

There might be in the future. The BBC is anxious to justify their licence fee - I'm not saying that Animate should move to the BBC, but I think there might be other areas where there are people who will be motivated to put money into fostering creativity.

CS: Europe - Arte, Canal Plus - they're still commissioning things.

CK: But you still need to go with your domestic funding. It doesn't look good if you turn up and ask French and German broadcasters for money when you haven't got any of your own. So it's absolutely vital that that support should be there. I mean things can’t remain as bad as this, so I think the support will come back. It's just whether everyone can hang on.

OP: I like Chris's analogy about the tree being cut down. I feel at the moment it's more like a harvest where the field has been ploughed. And I feel that even when there's a recession people don't stop thinking. They don't stop conceiving ideas and dreaming. And those dreams are going to manifest themselves in sketchbooks and in writings, in their interaction with people and ideas. I do feel as though that is happening. As though there are seeds being planted. It's just not being watered by money to develop the talent and to see the films.

Ideas cost nothing. It’s taking that idea and putting it on the screen, that's what costs the money. So if you're having those ideas and you're developing treatment, storyboards, scripts, at least you'll have something to show.

CS: It reminds me more of the 70s and 80s in Liverpool where everybody just did things that were instinctive and did it.

This is me really going off on one here! But it's just like when you listen to music and everything is very competent and nice. But what I want is The Clash. I want people to get angry and start saying, "Fuck this shit."

Anyway that's what we need. And somehow I think it will come.